Foreign scholar: Confucius is ” ascensive conservatism person “
Bei Danning (international is famous philosopher, sociologist, be born at Canada, ever held the post of Tsinghua university philosophy to fasten a professor, it is Shandong university politics and common management prexy now) He Wangpei (researcher of assistant of academy of Fudan University China) new book ” just grade talks: Why it is so important that social grade is in other place of China and world ” (Just Hierarchy: Why Social Hierarchies Matter In China And The Rest Of The World) already by Princeton this year university press was published in March. They are start from the meal bureau of Shandong university, talked about a lot of people and person, person and nature and country and country between ” grade ” phenomenon. Look in them, although ” equal ” very important, but modern society still needs ” grade ” system. Both neither of system of abolish society grade may be not desirable also. The grade system that the crucial place of the problem is which kinds of form is reasonable, which kinds are unreasonable, and how do these systems serve goal of the desirable on Yu Daode, if promote justice to wait, reduce phyletic, sexual distinction as far as possible at the same time or the inequitable influence that different place brings caste. They accepted observer web last week interview, more thorough ground talks about them to ” grade ” with ” equal ” view.
The new book of Bei Danning, Wang Pei ” just grade is talked ” press of cover Princeton university is offerred
[Interview / observer net Xu Jun]
Observer net: Nowadays ” equal ” the mainstream opinion that should be a whole world, it is what chance lets you feel ” grade ” (Hierarchy) be can, should be accepted by whole world place even?
Bei Danning: We are in ” just grade is talked ” the introduction lifts about the example with Shandong wine formal desk, it is the chance that we ponder over this problem actually. I hold the position of a dean in Shandong university already the 4th year, entertain guests to want every time according to ” grade ” come sort chooses place. I also have when Oxford reads Master and doctor before ” high table late banquet ” (High Table) . On those late banquets, it is very clear that the grade of teacher and student shares, the teacher sits above, the student sits below, and the teacher eats what should compare a student with drunk stuff is advanced, this kind of grade lets a person feel uncomfortable. But the situation of Shandong is different. Coming is as a result of the table that the circle uses when having a meal, so grade is not apparent. 2 because the grade setting over there is to let each guest feel very comfortable,coming is.
Shandong university politics and dean of courtyard of fair condominium a Confucian school of idealist philosophy of the Song and Ming Dynasties, ” just grade is talked ” one of authors Bei Danning, princeton university press is offerred
Wang Pei: I feel wine desk culture of China does not deserve to call culture before, however wine desk scum, it is to go up the alleged socialization that the person passes wine desk is formal will oppress the weak, keep especially urge sb to drink. lets a female drink make a spectacle of oneself. But since me after the meal bureau that experienced Shandong college, my idea is changed somewhat. Over you do not drink to also do not have a problem, not cloggy propose a toast of the ceremony spread out. A few humour also can speak polite when host proposes a toast to the guest and. Additional, on the setting of seat, two the most serious people can sit in two round-table top, guest and host are be mingled with is worn sit, come so each guest can have place dish and the person that pour wine technically to him, can feel to get on wine desk without the person so desolate.
Under photograph comparing, on the wine desk that Jiang Zhe heads, lowly guest does not have existence basically to feel. But the wife that accompanies the visitor with the most important moment in Jiang Zhe and child can are in by arrangement seat of honour, this seem to be in Shandong basic impossible.
” just grade is talked ” one of authors Wang Pei, princeton university press is offerred
Bei Danning: The wine that is in a few outlying areas possibly still has old man principle on the desk. Nevertheless we oppose old man doctrine, because our idea is ” ascensive conservatism ” (Progressive Conservatism) , sympathize with and the viewpoint of value that we progress to great majority supports. We object discriminating against, no matter be system of discrimination of the colour bar, sex, caste, still be based on the discrimination of oral speech soundvoice, district, urban and rural difference.
Observer net: Your ” conservative ” body now Where is what respect?
Bei Danning: In valueing the history and tradition, those shape the value that has crucial place to culture. Of course, we are not blind esteem, need to do to the tradition according to the true spirit of the times however critically.
Wang Pei: And, ascensive conservatism person just meet more esteem is multivariate culture, because ascensive conservatism is not,just have to oneself culture awe-stricken, have curiosity sincerely to the culture of other country and nation and have respect. Be based on this kind of culture to go up only ” go narcissism is changed ” state of mind, multivariate culture ability is possible.
Bei Danning: Still have a case actually, it is Aidemeng Baike (Edmund Burke) . He objects the French Revolution, this lets others feel he is very conservative. But he also objects England the colony to India, because he thinks,British colony destroyed the culture of Indian place. Zhanmusi Hanjinsi (James Hankins) also wrote a book to cry ” goodness politics ” (Virtue Politics) , he mentions China to take Confucianist culture seriously very much inside, this and liberal have very big different. Although the liberal looks very open, but admit a few traditional ideas not easily, because they feel,those culture are backward. For summary, I feel we take our culture seriously on one hand, respect the culture of others on the other hand.
Observer net: Then you feel to be in modern society, how should undertake accepting or reject to traditional culture?
Wang Pei: If be,have oppressive tradition to weak force group, then we feel to should object and abandon.
Bei Danning: We feel Confucius also is actually ” ascensive conservatism person ” . On one hand, confucius hopes to restore Zhou Li, appear very conservative. But on the other hand, his located to him times has very strong critically mind, this is progress.
Wang Pei: Yes, confucius can apply antediluvian ethics and political criterion to come critically his practical politics at that time.
Bei Danning: And Confucius also was changed ” gentleman ” meaning. Before Confucius, “Gentleman ” concern with regnant estate, it is a concept that is similar to western noble. But arrived here, “Gentleman ” became have goodness, capable person. This go out after us ” just grade is talked ” complement of the meeting when Chinese edition goes in.
Observer net: You a moment ago mentioned you to oppose old man doctrine. And the book in you ” just grade is talked ” a few awkward unfavorable situation that woman place also mentioned to be faced with in the first chapter. E.g. , if the male has dominant place in the family,you are mentioned, the advantage of the mentally that then his meeting will get leads take office field go in other perhaps sphere. If there is very main effect in the family,can be a female, mastered economic power over major issues for instance, then they can be thought job of investment of won’t complete body and mind is medium however socially. Do you feel to cause this to plant ” double mark ” what is the reason of the circumstance?
Bei Danning: Because be in,basically be of creed of a few old men country, for instance Japan is mixed Korea, the female is besides the family cannot get very great progress. The division of labor of this kind of become rigid makes people appeared the male should how, female should how inflexible impression. These should get was changinged.
Wang Pei: Once upon a time ” male advocate outside, female advocate inside ” because the female is repelled,consuetudinary foundation is of the path that grows up in Confucianist gentleman besides educational system, but the opportunity that modern society men and women accepts education is already opposite more fair, although did not achieve complete fairness, but compare with archaic photograph, presenting the trend that come out still is better. Educational result always is differ in thousands ways, the work that everybody is good at handle is endless and same. After the men and women of modern society combines a family, in be based on a family believe with each other intimately, one party is OK the right that demise handles a few work gives another, if the other side is on this general affairs more if be good at.
Additional, domestic general affairs is very complex actually, the society needs to form a kind of consciousness, not be the contribution that only profitable ability is pair of families namely. Raise the home than making money this kind ” strong contribution ” besides, still another is plant ” soft contribution ” , the relation that teachs old person of children, support, processing and kin and community for example, maintain the atmosphere with relaxed and humorous family. Although these are inferior to making money it seems that raise a hard in that way nucleus, but to a family it is more crucial probably.
Observer net: You talk in the book ” grade ” when used a word ” poor foreword ” . Those who point to is us to different person, even the love that the animal needs to difference waits. This concept connects in cost filial piety ” agrestic China ” in once had appeared. Are you inspired from what get over there him? But he to ” poor foreword ” the phenomenon supports critically attitude, think even if ” poor order pattern ” brought about a Chinese to care the small circle of people beside only, lack integral cohesive affinity. How should we avoid this kind of circumstance to appear?
Bei Danning: Yes, we are to suffer Fei Xiaotong to affected ability to use really ” poor foreword ” one word. What we discuss is ” grade ” , no matter this word appears to have the taste of derogatory sense in Chinese or English, so we want to look for one specific speech to replace as far as possible. Actually ” poor foreword ” this statement also is not particularly likely, because had been used by Fei Xiaotong.
Wang Pei: At the beginning the title of English we hope to follow the example of Delida, ” Hierarchy ” in one word ” E ” change ” A ” , meaning the road natural disposition that gives a kind of vocabulary in creation, but the press did not agree. Chinese respect, “Grade ” this word is offensive on one hand, it is on one hand ” social grade ” often let a person associate in Chinese words condition ” social estate ” or ” social class ” , and the discussion content that this is not us. King is resolute the teacher suggests we are used ” the layer orders ” one word, but this term may be too new to most reader, to the interpreter of Chinese we still also hesitate quite.
Bei Danning: Nevertheless, the Chinese society phenomenon that we think Fei Xiaotong sees does not accord with the viewpoint of value of the Confucianist. The Confucianist holds with the family that loves his of course, but the Confucianist also emphasizes ” put oneself in the place of another ” , old I is old and of the person old, want to go out the love promotion to the family, go to patriotic home, love the world.
Observer net: You are mentioned in the book, in light of the viewpoint with the Confucianist, artificial intelligence (AI) the relationship that develops to should not affect person and person. But show the intelligent electron product that be in actually, for instance mobile phone, had let a lot of people become ” lower one’s head a group of things with common features ” , although they counteract family communication in the home not much also, aux would rather get online and watch video. How should answer this kind of circumstance excuse me?
Wang Pei: Really, the development of Internet makes people easier find the person of have a common goal, have a kind of view, be in what find on the net to be able to get comer a little with oneself is ” the family member of self-selection ” . Can find solace through the network very good of course, but the friend that the friend on the net always hopes to contact with can meet in becoming the life slowly. Meet to be met occasionally more stimulative friendship, of course occasionally more circumstances may be ” dead date ” . This explains the communication of the network has the authenticity on certain affection, what at the same time a few network communication also have practical side is false. Face-to-face communication always is more difficult, so people apt gets online above all look. But just because between person and person face-to-face what communication brings the sort of head on and the authenticity that come, was destined it can never be replaced in the round by network communication place.
Rate of the divorce after there is a netizen to say epidemic situation passes for fun before can soar, because also do not have a distance again,can produce the United States, but the connubial just that we also heard of a few feeling are bad because during epidemic situation must everyday face-to-face, had more to discover the opportunity of the other side, understanding the other side instead, promotional instead feeling. This is face-to-face the plain power that exchanges means.
Bei Danning: I feel the relation of person and person, the family concerns mediumly or want to have a few regulation especially, a few ” ceremony ” . E.g. , the mobile phone does not see when mobile phone, everybody looking to chat when everybody has a meal. I see in the dining room with big hill students sit in one desk to have a meal, but do not talk, everybody is seeing a mobile phone, I feel very sad. My tentative idea when the dean is, one of wanting not to want every term serves as ” need not mobile phone day ” (Phone-free Day) , do not allow authority, include a teacher, see a mobile phone. But accomplish very hard.
Observer net: When talking about a country to administer, you think country, especially big country, should hand in by ” sagely ” will administer. These people need not only capable, have morality even, it is the manner that promising masses serves at least. Excuse me we should differentiate them to whether have morality, and let them maintain?
Bei Danning: This is a more difficult question really. We are in ” just grade is talked ” the 2nd chapter has a few to discuss. I think to regard processing as national person, their bottom line is not corrupt, the resources that does not abuse a country goes be his, the family that perhaps is oneself seeks profit. They also need promising people really, lose especially the manner that force group serves, but it know whether they have such attitude is not easy to know whether they have such attitude. The Confucianist is advocated ” careful alone ” , also want to maintain personal integrity in uncared-for moment namely. The person that so we think to be willing to take up a political career needs the education of a few humanitarian respects, especially the education of the Confucianist, can develop the attitude that the person that take up a political career serves for people so.
Observer net: Shanghai has a scholar to call Bao Peng hill, he established before a few years riverside river school will teach Chinese tradition freely classical, in feeling because of him the foundation teachs China now, some are short of Yo of person culture and education break. He thinks to be able to let a person a national condition is conceived through the Confucianist imparts classically. Nevertheless, he also feels that he cannot be had blind faith in read the force of classics, had read the Confucianist because of archaic scholar classical, but be not everybody to have feelings very much. Excuse me besides education, do you think to still need other move?
Bei Danning: Need of course. Should have good salary e.g. the official, raise cheap with high salary namely. Assume I am an official, once my mom became ill, need the medical treatment fee of high specified number, slip possibly at that time to corruption. To prevent such situation, at least the official should have considerable salary. Besides, also need regulation and legislation, let an official do not do corrupt business.
Wang Pei: Avoid to let governmental official and capital, commerce be pestered together. If decide,devote into political circles e.g. a person, that is familial do not be infected with the business.
Observer net: What you advocate ” sagely politics ” the likelihood development to the country is pretty good, but they are mastering the resource with more high grade more, because this has an advantage more compared with the child of Everyman home,their child also is met. If things go on like this can cause class solidify, bring about invisible descendent system to appear?
Bei Danning: Really, if the father of a child is curule, likelihood he often is mixed with respect to organic meeting other and curule have a meal together, and hear a lot of knowledge about how governing a country as a child. Want to prevent the situation of occurrence estate solidify, we feel to need social flow, if political grade too become rigid, of course masses can have an opinion, and still need to reduce gap of the rich and the poor. If difference of the rich and the poor is too big, the poor sufferred educational opportunity to also decrease, for instance the burden does not rise the tuition of the university. Additional, also should give the participation with certain masses political chance. Must not carry the kind of the election, wang Shaoguang teachs the way that has talked lot, the way that perhaps negotiates democracy is good also.
Wang Pei: Be in archaic China is probably such, the children of everybody a group of things with common features people advection enterprising is compared general cold door has an advantage much, more do not carry those not talking that go up the child of the family of the portal. But be in contemporary China, the person that we can see a few one’s previous experience do not liberal sits to compare high position. The student union of this likelihood and China, round appoint and the system of cadre of Party branch education is concerned. Inside the university, should become student union and cadre of political parties and other organizations not too the domestic background that sees a person. If this individual has communal consciousness very much, be willing very much actively serves for everybody, he shows itself very easily, did not concern directly with domestic background. So our student works the opportunity that this part can offer many giving to learn and practice to the undergraduate that take up a political career of purpose.
Additional, chinese choose takes an exam, take an exam like the university entrance exam and officeholder, although not be of perfect, some a lot of problems need us to correct, social flow still can be promoted cardinal principle, because they offerred the relatively fair starting point on an opportunity. Should to take an examination does not have a lot of capital fund in need home, or the cadre that parental need is which level above, the case that follows Chinese ancient time is more opposite still than rising fairness is not little. Come so, of the individual struggle to appear important.
Bei Danning: Yes, if do not pass the university entrance exam and officeholder exam, sit very hard in China actually very high position.
Observer net: You a moment ago mentioned the chance that should give the participation with certain masses politics, in the book you also say ordinary people wants to have speech right. But from processing country ” sagely ” people look, common masses may not knows what they need truly. If once appear populism, how does popular wishes go kidnapping the policymaker’s decision does?
Bei Danning: If the system of sagely politics is perfect, and common masses also can be on certain level participate in politics, that can avoid to move toward populism usually, both sides can be coordinated each other. But if the system of sagely politics is become rigid, that populism can become very serious.
Wang Pei: Populism place appeals to beg more it is short-term even the interest before, and take no account of long-term issue. Chinese all along has the tradition that values a descendants, ordinary common people can naturally has a relatively long-term vision to view a society, view the world.
Observer net: How does that judge a system or society whether become rigid?
Bei Danning: Basically view social liquidity namely.
Wang Pei: Yes, present Chinese society liquidity is good still. A lot of people fear he can encounter estate declines, actually probable because estate rises now,be the person is increasing also. If cannot strive upper reaches, that is squeezed very likely to go down by others. Strive upper reaches this it doesn’t matter is bad, but if this upper reaches is the upper reaches of fame and gain only, have break biased. When we talk to the layer orders or say rank, the responsibility that the person place with higher position assumes is heavier, pressure also is jumped over actually big. Can take on to have corresponding responsibility capable to treat the person of the work that this position place brings, if by both neither virtuous squeeze without the person of heart again go down, so the issue that we need to consider to be put in estate become rigid.
Bei Danning: And, difference of the rich and the poor is quite big still now, need continues to narrow.
Observer net: Besides the relation between person and person, you still mention complete equality also is not between country and country in the book. When answering the question with such as heated climate, it is important that the manner of big country should compare Xiaoguo. You think the United States should admit the dominant position that China is in East Asia area, make more concession. But present circumstance is the United States is not accepted it seems that however, and continue in diplomacy and publicly hit press China. Need when may after China exceeds the United States with economic respect in the military affairs, this ability come true?
Wang Pei: We object unilateral creed and sheet extremely the hegemony of the world. Sheet pole world is already macroscopical the ground gradually type is small, multipolar world has been to be about to present the landscape before us. On the world a lot of places are in rise abruptly, roughly for have northeast inferior, India, Europe, Russia, Mohammedan world, Africa, North America and Latin America, and they have their special culture convention. Additional, this new coronal epidemic situation is a turning point that yields people to realize culture difference. China, Korea, Japan even Vietnam is controlled weller, can see from dead number. And these countries are not adopted ” group immunity ” politic, because old people of Confucianist culture treasure is,should reflect policy to go up. Western country is not ignored old people, just they fulfil policy level to be mixed namely to the care of old people East Asia is not identical.
Bei Danning: So the country of East Asia has a few same viewpoint of value. If everybody admits, the possibility can solve a problem very easily in the future. Actually we feel China and India also have a few same viewpoint of value, but everybody communication is too little now, feeling is new nation, solve a problem very hard so.
Wang Pei: We are in ” just grade is talked ” the 3rd chapter spoke of means of two kinds of mutually beneficial, one kind is ” strong mutually beneficial ” , another kind is ” weak mutually beneficial ” . Latter is the benefit that everybody considers him state from utilitarian angle, and former those who point to is there is collective viewpoint of value between the country, can debate collective future from the angle of a community.
Bei Danning: In present international relation, weaker country should study the culture of stronger country, but the culture that strong country also should want to learn weak country. This and the pay tribute system previously are different.
Wang Pei: Yes, the country in concerning at contemporary international should have the right to go redefine, new explanatory note is mutual the relation between, cannot be strong one party said to calculate only, become unilateral principle otherwise, what we object this. And so called ” big country ” and ” Xiaoguo ” the identity also can move change change each other occasionally. Just erupted in Wuhan e.g. epidemic situation of this new coronal when, pakistan is to lift countrywide force to assist China, donate guaze mask and medical treatment goods and materials. From the point of utilitarian angle they were not necessary so do, but they however so did, and this is not stem from China force, however they are freewill so do. Compare with Chinese photograph, pakistan wants on territory a lot of smaller, economically weak also, but the practice just that is in critical hour Pakistan was reflected ” big country ” wind model.
Observer net: Chinese development shook on international pattern not only the advantage position of Euramerican country, still bring to them even think the system that be proud and viewpoint of value, for instance free democratically (Liberal Democracy) caused very big impact, this creates the possibility namely at present the west is turned over China one of reasons. Below this kind of circumstance, of Chinese mainland, and how should the scholar of western research China let the west suffer numerous accept Chinese culture and Chinese development way?
Bei Danning: Interesting is, chinese student, intellectual and official understand the United States very much, but conversely, western student and intellectual do not have very large interest to China.
Wang Pei: We feel to should not have the idea of hegemonism of any a kind of culture, true open mind needs to have ” go narcissism is changed ” review consciousness. What say here ” narcissism ” not be narcissism only those people of the culture at oneself, what also point to is those people that narcissism is about to gesticulate to other and new culture with experience at understanding a certain culture somewhat. Culture difference is a fact, but a culture should despise another culture, and fitly still force realized this to despise make its became discrimination, the hegemonism that goes up with respect to meeting occurrence culture then.
But a moment ago said like me, multipolar world had begun to appear gradually, the hegemonism on culture is very difficult base oneself upon. Culture of avery kind of has become rigid and the share that have energy, we should do double self-criticism to any culture, dug is among them true spirit, also want critically among them stale with disloyal. Like wanting to resemble thief the culture of bolt theft others, the person that learn and should understand him truly modestly.
Bei Danning: We encourage western student to learn to China. Although present circumstance still is not very hopeful, but this is only method. At least western student should learn a few months to China, ability can understand Chinese culture and history slowly.
Observer net: In ” just grade is talked ” when the 5th chapter speaks of AI developing, you think to collaboration needs to answer the AI challenge to our mankind between international, overturn for instance originally of person and machine advocate fall forward relation. But likelihood to a lot of countries, the development of AI is a very serious topic for discussion, because of AI technology may let them have an advantage between the international competition in the future formidably. Since such, between international should how each other letter, spread out collaboration?
Bei Danning: From which short-term for, every government should have certain restriction to AI, do not make it cleverer than the mankind, because it is compared,may not can have friendly attitude to us after the mankind is clever, may exploit we. So we object Marx ” advanced communism ” a few content in theory. After he thought to enter advanced communism, the machine can do the thing that we are not willing to do, do not need a country to solve a problem to moment. But we feel to be able to AI exploits human possibility, still need to have so ” country ” this configuration goes avoiding this kind of possibility. We do not think with meaning Marx ” the country needs die out ” idea.
Wang Pei: I feel to show internationally or the reason of letter of very difficult each other is being returned at multipolar world was not accepted by everybody, the hegemony of sheet pole world can be brought only oppressive, won’t bring credit. When multipolar world comes true truly, many force extremely between make each other judge, fair collaboration space also is met bigger and bigger.
Press of Bei Danning, Wang Pei and university of Princeton of new book title is offerred